Curse

Abedeus · Feb 12, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Paragon and Mesmer heroes are smarter than average hero of other class by 50 IQ points, so they micro their builds and your build, if you are incapable of doing it.

Kidding, but seriously, paragon heroes fail at microing just one skill - Stand Your Ground. They use it, even if I already used it before or some other hero did. They just don't understand, that reapplying that shout will only make it last longer, but instead of 100% +24 armor, I have only 65% at best... So I have to disable it and activate when my shout is about to end.

Oh, and thanks for the guide anyway. Gotta get one of those shields (req 7, not 16 def), as I rarely put 9 or 10 to Motivation/Command, unless I play SoR para, then everything goes to Motiv.

Racthoh · Feb 12, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

I don't suppose you could try and build the whole thing with different primaries in mind? I run SY on my Warrior (Godmode ftw), and I'm assuming it won't make too much of a difference between me and your para, unless there's something I'm missing. What would you recommend people run with different primaries, and if the heroes would be adjusted in any way, is what I'm asking.

I've been playing it on my warrior now with the same builds as I work through GW:EN and the biggest issue of all is that you are targeted with every hate spell first. If you're expecting an area with a lot of blind take Sight Beyond Sight so you aren't raging as much as I have been. There have been times where I'm just wanding the closest physical to build SY until the AI have killed everything, rather sad.

These builds are more suited towards a physical of some sort and would require some drastic changes for a caster primary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

I'm curious as to how you've noticed your heroes using Empathic Removal. The last time I slotted that one a heroes bar, they spammed it over and over to remove the cracked armor from all the paragons..

From what I've seen they won't use it unless they have a hex or condition themselves. I would always throw up my Aggressive Refrain first and they'd never use the Empathic Removal with just my cracked armor present. It's somewhat of a blessing and a curse, when you do encounter a lot of hexes you know for sure they'll be using it on recharge.

If the energy is becoming an issue disable it out of fights that are lacking in hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDeadboltX

I was just wondering, do the heroes need any managing, or just pre casting AS before battle? I went to the temple of balth and melonni ran out of energy straight away, didnt bother casting arcane zeal first so should I do that before battle. However the reason she ran out of energy is that she doesnt have the staff yet, so she should probably have enough I think with the staff

From what I gather from other players I can only assume that the hero has to have a wand or staff to use the build properly. When the master of damage was first introduced on the battle isles I sent my quartet to him and the hero never had energy issues for the whole 180 seconds of straight fighting. The only spells I have ever pre-cast are the interventions, and sometimes Dark Fury for a boss fight if I want SY up ASAP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDeadboltX

Also, Im planning on using this with my ranger. Originally I was thinking a build something along the lines of

Apply poison, Burning Arrow, Flurry, Lightening Reflexes, Ebon Battle standard of honor, "FGJ!", "SY!" , res

I would consider Volley or Barrage to take advantage of the ward and order, and to build SY faster.

Cherng Butter · Feb 12, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Is the Ebon Vanguard ward pivotal to this build? My Ebon rank is only 4, and I want to use this on my God-Mode Dragonslashing Warrior.

MercenaryKnight · Feb 13, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

It shouldn't be mandatory, but of course it will help. It is basically a non enchant order that adds on extra damage to every hero so it speeds up the killing.

For me, I am just curious as to how we can use up the rest of the hero slots. Since I always play with my girlfriend and usually I have to set up the builds that require non ordinary skills, or needs the extra gear/ runes since she usually doesn't.

So, rac have you had any suggestions or ideas if your using the 2 paras, 1 dervish and then had access to 3 more heroes?

I would assume the n/rt weapon spammer could help since it adds healing as well as damage, and that with the d/n should probably be enough.

You could always add maybe another necro with fiends like someone else suggested since usually fiends will attack the closest enemy they can so they should stay around the range of the ward if even for a little bit.

Cowboy Nastyman · Feb 13, 2008, 01:24 AM // 01:24

not really jsut helps push the damage

Marverick · Feb 13, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Kidding, but seriously, paragon heroes fail at microing just one skill - Stand Your Ground. They use it, even if I already used it before or some other hero did. They just don't understand, that reapplying that shout will only make it last longer, but instead of 100% +24 armor, I have only 65% at best... So I have to disable it and activate when my shout is about to end.

Same with Defensive Anthem, Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!" and "Incoming!". They just don't understand what chaining means, apparently.

I'd like to find some way to fit this on my Ranger for vanquishing, do you think the following build would work?

[skill=text]Expert's Dexterity[/skill]
[wiki]Club of a Thousand Bears[/wiki]
[skill=text]Steelfang Slash[/skill]
[wiki]Distracting Strike[/wiki]
[skill=text]Savage Slash[/skill]
[wiki]"Save Yourselves!"[/wiki]
[skill=text]Lightning Reflexes[/skill]
[wiki]Dwarven Stability[/wiki]

MercenaryKnight · Feb 13, 2008, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I find it funny heroes can't chain anything worth squat. Yet enemy ai like giants can chain giant stomp perfectly without any problems each and every time.

Seems like a.net could easily of made heroes smarter but they probably wanted to force some drawbacks to make us find real people.

Cathode_Reborn · Feb 13, 2008, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

I'd like to find some way to fit this on my Ranger for vanquishing, do you think the following build would work?

[skill=text]Expert's Dexterity[/skill]
[wiki]Club of a Thousand Bears[/wiki]
[skill=text]Steelfang Slash[/skill]
[wiki]Distracting Strike[/wiki]
[skill=text]Savage Slash[/skill]
[wiki]"Save Yourselves!"[/wiki]
[skill=text]Lightning Reflexes[/skill]
[wiki]Dwarven Stability[/wiki]

The buff to Penetrating/Sundering shot made it so rangers can dish out some pretty nice DPS.

One build i saw on GvG observe was Penetrating/Sundering/Quick Shot/Expert's focus. You could also use Read the wind + Prepared shot to keep your energy up, cause even with 14+ expertise spamming both of those skills is pretty hard on the energy

The quick-cast times go well with Hornbows also, and will help fuel "SY". If you have Triple shot, that'd go very well with Orders + Ebon ward + Vamp mod.

Racthoh · Feb 13, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

So, rac have you had any suggestions or ideas if your using the 2 paras, 1 dervish and then had access to 3 more heroes?

First thing that comes to mind is something that can dish out Splinter Weapons, a WoH Hybrid and a BHA ranger or Barrage guy. A little AoE wouldn't hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherng Butter

Is the Ebon Vanguard ward pivotal to this build? My Ebon rank is only 4, and I want to use this on my God-Mode Dragonslashing Warrior.

My warrior running the same three heroes currently uses SY, You Move Like A Dwarf! and Finish Him! in his pve slots. I subbed in Zealous Anthem to help my energy out in place of the Spear of Redemption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I find it funny heroes can't chain anything worth squat.

They seem to be pretty good with spells, chaining Aegis with no problem. Heroes, and enemies, fail with adrenaline skills, attack skills and shouts/chants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

One build i saw on GvG observe was Penetrating/Sundering/Quick Shot/Expert's focus.

I recall seeing that build as well. With this setup I think it would work very well with the order + ward.

MercenaryKnight · Feb 13, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Perhaps an n/rt with channeling/ soul reaping/ death magic? Similar to an icy veins, rising bile necro to cause damage on death of enemies while supporting with splinter weapon and maybe ancestor's rage?

Also, any suggestions on a good bar for the woh hybrid/ bha ranger? I mainly ask since I have had quite a few failures with my own hero monks in the past. Using too many high energy spells or too much energy management.

I am assuming the monk hybrid is mainly because not only does it add heals but it adds protective spirit too which helps a lot when taking a lot of damage if for some reason save yourselves isn't up? Otherwise the n/rt weapon spammer would add damage while healing, but without any protective spirit.

Antithesis · Feb 13, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I hate hero monks, they're dumb as dogturd at managing energy. Because your team is almost permanently enchanted, *maybe* [skill=text]Healing Light[/skill] should be considered for the e-management. Party healing's covered by the D/N, so WoH is a clear choice for anti-spike.

The rest of the bar is pretty simple...Dwayna's Kiss, Signet of Rejuvenation, Cure Hex, Dismiss Condition (maybe leave this out given the amount of cracked armour flying around), Aegis and a couple of optionals. I'd possibly take Leech Signet & Power Drain given most prot you're going to lay down is redundant with Save Yourselves. Prot Spirit is better on a N/Mo MM as it has more energy to throw around and heroes fail at pre-prot. Shield of Absorption's a solid option. Reversal of Fortune helps under pressure.

Given Morghan is dishing out Dazed on a regular basis, Barrage makes sense in place of BHA. BHA can free up the elite on Morgahn, so he can use [skill=text]Defensive Anthem[/skill] for squishy support, or take [skill=text]Angelic Bond[/skill]. Volley can go onto a BHA bar and combines well with Splinter on Sab's N/Rt healer. It'll suffer without the minion energy machine, take [skill=text]Offering of Spirit[/skill] and energy is back on track.

For an AoE option, i'd go with a Mind Blast / Dual Attunement Rodgort's Invocation spammer with a couple of wards and Mark of Rodgort. Again, this synergises with They're on Fire. I'd probably only take the Ele if the D/N and N/Rt can handle all healing and drop the WoH...i'm providing a heap of prot with SY, TNTF and TOF. Alternately, you could run Splinter Weapon on the Ele and drop the N/Rt for the WoH.

Long story short - a WoH Monk, Offering of Spirit N/Rt, BHA + Volley / Barrage Ranger and/or a Mind Blast / Dual Attunement Ele. That's just my take on Rac's suggestions. Splinter and BHA+Volley or Barrage are hard to pass up. WoH or the MB can be swapped for defense / offense as needed.

When it comes down to it, you could save yourself the trouble and go Sabway on the second player

Washi · Feb 13, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

I have a question. Do heroes really stay in the ward? From my experience they never do. At least they never cared about a ward when I used earth ele. And what about the toucher lol, I would ba afraid to put a touch skill on a hero, you never know when he will decide to chase someone to touch him.

XDeadboltX · Feb 13, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I would consider Volley or Barrage to take advantage of the ward and order, and to build SY faster.

Thanks for the reply. Tried burning arrow and it was way too hard to keep energy up with constant burning arrow and flurry. I was considering barrage but thought it might be a waste since i normally only hit 3 or 4 foes at a time so ill try that. Might go /mes for epidemic, or just stick to splinter. Splinter probably best though I think. I will try out cathodes suggestions too.

Thanks for giving me a reason to use my paragon and derv heroes

Rubain · Feb 13, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

I'm curious as to how you've noticed your heroes using Empathic Removal. The last time I slotted that one a heroes bar, they spammed it over and over to remove the cracked armor from all the paragons..

[skill]Expel Hexes[/skill] would be an option, as Empathic Removal is used as a Hex remover

Zapper901 · Feb 13, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I for some reason cannot see the pictures. Could somebody please post the builds in writting? I know it's kinda asking alot, but I really want to see these builds.

Drake Keyotte · Feb 13, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

RAC! GZ. Makes me want to start a Paragon class. thanks

Racthoh · Feb 13, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Washi

I have a question. Do heroes really stay in the ward? From my experience they never do. At least they never cared about a ward when I used earth ele.

I won't drop the ward until after the AI have started to attack and everyone starts to do their own thing. It's easier to place it once you've engaged the mob; you get an idea of who will be standing still and who will be kiting. Placing a flag can help them stay still as long as they aren't under too much fire. Even if you're just getting a few people inside the ward it still adds a lot of damage over its duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Also, any suggestions on a good bar for the woh hybrid/ bha ranger? I mainly ask since I have had quite a few failures with my own hero monks in the past. Using too many high energy spells or too much energy management.

I'm not too familiar with rangers so I can't really think of what BHA bar would look like at all. Another possibility I was thinking of today was Infuriating Heat since there already is a daze present on Morgahn. I don't run spirits ever so I'm unsure of how the enemy would deal with it; if they would kill it because of the lower level/health or just ignore it. If they do ignore it that frees up two slots on the SY bar, including your elite. Even still you could just micro it and pre-cast well out of combat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I am assuming the monk hybrid is mainly because not only does it add heals but it adds protective spirit too which helps a lot when taking a lot of damage if for some reason save yourselves isn't up? Otherwise the n/rt weapon spammer would add damage while healing, but without any protective spirit.

Hex removals and Aegis. N/Rt cannot fill that role.

The monks I've been using usually run this:

Word of Healing
Dwayna's Kiss
Cure Hex
Signet of Rejuvenation
Remove Hex/Dismiss Condition
Shield of Absorption
Aegis
Glyph of Lesser Energy

Healing Prayers: 14
Divine Favor: 10
Protection Prayers: 10

I can't think of what to replace the glyph with, probably a 3rd hex removal since the only place I've been taking the monk hero recently has been FoW. With SY there is little use for Protective Spirit; if you want to slot it disable it and cast for boss encounters to use on yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Reversal of Fortune helps under pressure.

I've never seen the heroes use RoF well, and with SY the heal isn't very significant. You'll get more use out of your 5 energy with Dwayna's Kiss when you can bank on the conditional for 2 enchantments with Dark Fury and Order of Pain. For the most part the best protection skills to use are going to be Aegis, Guardian, etc... mainly just to avoid interrupts and prevent adrenaline gain. That and hex removals for Empathy, Spiteful Spirit, Visions of Regret, Soothing Images, basically all the hate slowing down your killing and impacting your defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zapper901

I for some reason cannot see the pictures. Could somebody please post the builds in writting? I know it's kinda asking alot, but I really want to see these builds.

I've added an attachment at the end of the first post with the details written up for each picture.

Antithesis · Feb 14, 2008, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Merc, i've been testing out a few bars in HM with my D-Slasher for a second team to complement Rac's. I chose my D-Slash Warrior instead of my God Mode Para to put the team under more pressure (without There's Nothing to Fear / They're on Fire, less Save Yourselves spam) -

E/Rt Blindbot Channeler

Elemental Attunement {e}
Air Attunement
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Blinding Flash
Enervating Charge
Shell Shock
Splinter Weapon
Ancestor's Rage

Air:14 E-Store:9 Channeling:10

A very powerful defensive hero, it can make the difference between a smooth run and a party wipe. I much prefer the dual attunement blindbot to Blinding Surge - BS runs low on energy (i don't like to stop between mobs to regen), dual attune spams spells better and has no energy problems. Dazed gets removed quickly via the SoR Para or the N/Rt healer, enchant stripping is an annoyance but easily overcome or avoided given Dark Fury & Order of Pain are covering enchants. Weakness, Blind and Cracked Armor are applied liberally. Shell Shock lets you take Chest Thumper on a Hero instead of Merciless / Vicious Spear for a spammable Deep Wound.

I tried a Mind Blast / Rodgort's Invocation channeler - the extra AoE damage can speeds things up, but the backline is too exposed to melee attack in HM without weakness / wards / blind in the team build. This is where They're on Fire may come in handy for the extra backline damage protection, but I'd take the blindbot over an MB/RI in a second.

N/Rt Reaper's Mark Healer

Reaper's Mark {e}
Soothing Memories
Mend Body and Soul
Spirit Light
Protective was Kaolai
Life
Signet of Lost Souls
Death Pact Signet

Soul:14 Restoration:12

Basically Sab's N/Rt without the minion energy machine. Reaper's Mark and Soothing Memories keeps energy buffed, Splinter is moved to the E/Rt, condition removal shouldn't be a problem when combined with a SoP Para. There are no energy management problems at all - most of the time the bar is maxed, making for a spam happy healer. If you're concerned about the delay of Reaper's Mark energy gain, take Offering of Spirit instead (change Soul Reaping to 10 and boost Channeling to 10).

R/Me BHA Volleyer

Broad Head Arrow {e}
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Volley
Needling Shot
Poison Tip Signet
Body Shot
Epidemic

Exp:14 Marks:13 WS:3

A solid interrupter with a spash of AoE damage. Needling Shot combines well with dazed on < 50% health targets. BHA frees up Morgahn's elite for hex removal if needed. Body Shot powers Epidemic to spread Dazed, Cracked Armor, Deep Wound, Blind, Poison, Burning and Weakness. Ebon Dust Aura is another option if you don't want to take the Ele, in that case also drop Epidemic (/D secondary) and Body Shot.

To be honest, i've tested this quite a bit and i'd rather just drop Epidemic onto Morgahn...he can spam Dazed more often than a Ranger uses BHA and has energy to burn for Epidemic. Forget the BHA and take a Barrager instead.

WoH Hybrid

I like Rac's WoH, use that. In this team build, hex removal on the physicals is more of a problem than condition removal, so two hex removals is sensible.
The WoH has no problems with energy management as long as you don't take Dismiss Condition. Given the N/Rt has unlimited energy to spam 3 good heals, and the Para shouts / blindbot's melee defense / Morgahn or the BHA's interrupts & condition spreading covers all defensive needs, i don't really see a need for a Monk just for WoH and Aegis. Nice to have but not essential when i can take Protective Spirit and Aegis on a minion bomber and offer a lot more to the team.

In Summary - this build has plenty of offense, defense, pressure and survivability. After testing the build in HM i'd take a N/Rt healer, E/Rt Blindbot and a Minion Bomber for heavy-hitting prots / hex removal, which also allows you to take Weapon of Remedy or Icy Veins on the N/Rt healer. I'd drop Aria of Zeal (it's not needed as this build is energy efficient) for Finale of Restoration - with Save Yourselves pumping out every 3 to 5 seconds you add a lot of healing support. I'd also drop Hexbreaker Aria from Morgahn for Epidemic - it combines really well with the blindbot.

Tyla · Feb 14, 2008, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

R/Me BHA Volleyer

Serpent's Quickness
Broad Head Arrow
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Volley
Needling Shot
Body Shot
Epidemic

Exp:14 Marks:13 WS:3

I've been using a similar build on my ranger.
'Cept not using bodyshot, needling shot or serpents quickness.
Troll Unguent, NatStride & Poison Tip Signet...meh, gets the job done though!

Seriously - great guide Rachtoh!

Tyla · Feb 14, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

I never really run into energy problems anyway - so Body Shot isn't really needed for me.

EDIT: This was supposed to go after Antithesis's post after this one...Musta lagged or summin'